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England and Wales Court of Appeal (Criminal Division) Decisions |
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You are here: BAILII >> Databases >> England and Wales Court of Appeal (Criminal Division) Decisions >> W and M, R. v [2010] EWCA Crim 1926 (27 July 2010) URL: http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2010/1926.html Cite as: [2010] EWCA Crim 1926 |
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CRIMINAL DIVISION
Strand London, WC2A 2LL |
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B e f o r e :
(LORD JUSTICE HUGHES)
MRS JUSTICE RAFFERTY DBE
MR JUSTICE MADDISON
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R E G I N A | ||
v | ||
W AND M |
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Miss C Patel appeared on behalf of M
Miss R Cottage appeared on behalf of the Crown
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Crown Copyright ©
The evidence
"S did not pick you up at any time, did he? Do you annoy what I mean by saying 'pick you up'?
A. I can't remember.
Q. S did not put his willy in your bum, did he?
A. No.
Q. S did not put his willy in your minnie, did he?
A. No."
There was a not dissimilar exchange during the cross-examination on behalf of W. We should say that the cross-examination on behalf of both boys was not in any sense confined to the few questions which we now identify. But in answer to questions on behalf of W, the little girl said these things:
"Q. Did K take his trousers down and show you his willy?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you take your skirt down or up and show your minnie?
A. No.
Q. Do you want to think about that one again? No one is going to be cross with you.
A. Yeah.
Q. That is very brave because I know it is difficult to say when you have done something naughty but no one is going to be cross with you. Did S show his willy?
A. Yeah.
Q. This was the three of you just being a little bit naughty. Do you agree?
A. Yeah."
Then a little later:
"Q. If you wanted to go home you could have gone home, could you not?
A. Yeah."
Then a little later:
"Q. You just went with the boys because it was going to be fun?
A. I didn't know they were going to do that.
...
Q. Then you took your knickers down and you showed your minnie, did you not?
A. Yeah.
Q. Little bit naughty but do not worry. Nothing too terrible. Are you all right because I cannot quite see you.
A. Yeah.
Q. You were all giggling at that time, were you not? Do you--
A. [Interrupting] Yeah.
Q. -- remember giggling?"
Then Miss Strudwick on behalf of W put specifically the suggestion that what he had done had been confined to touching the base of her spine with his willy. The answer to that was: "Yeah." She asked:
"But that is the only time he touched you. Do you agree?"
And the answer to that was "Yeah". A little further on she put:
"He never put his willy in your minnie. Do you agree?
A. Yeah."
And the child agreed also with what was being put on behalf of W about what S had done, limited as we have said to putting his penis between the girl's thighs.
"THE JUDGE: So what were you worried about with your mother?
A. No sweeties.
THE JUDGE: 'No sweeties.' Why would you not get any sweeties?
A. Because if she would find out I had been naughty, I would get no sweeties.
THE JUDGE: Had you been naughty?
A. Only a tiny bit.
THE JUDGE: How had you been naughty?
A. I can't remember."
And that was confirmed. Then Miss Strudwick put to her directly this question:
"Was the naughty bits the taking down of your knickers?"
And received the answer "Yeah".
"We emphasise that in our collective experience the age of a witness is not determinative on his or her ability to give truthful and accurate evidence. Like adults some children will provide truthful and accurate testimony, and some will not. However children are not miniature adults, but children, and to be treated and judged for what they are, not what they will, in years ahead, grow to be."
"However, having heard and seen the cross-examination, I take the view that it would be open to the jury to conclude, particularly in the light of the other evidence, that A was, for any of, or for a number of, the reasons suggested by the prosecution, not actually agreeing in any meaningful way to what was being suggested to her."
The general policy of the legislature is that those who are under 18 years of age and particularly children of under 15 should, wherever possible, be tried in the Youth Court. It is that court which is best designed to meet their specific needs. A trial in the Crown Court with the inevitably greater formality and greatly increased number of people involved, including a jury and the public, should be reserved for the most serious cases.
2. It is a further policy of the legislature that, generally speaking, first-time offenders aged 12 to 14, and all offenders under 12, should not be detained in custody and decisions as to jurisdiction should have regard to the fact that the exceptional power to detain for grave offences should not be used to water down that general principle.
3. Those under 15 will rarely attract a period of detention and even more rarely those who are under 12.